Shadow-X

[libellule]

[QUOTE=Ian Smith;4686]Hi, this is a very interesting development and with all due respect, to reject it out of hand seems a bit hasty, the idea and need of having a larger spin for the Shadow is something that we at Rutland have talked about before, and personally I think would make the boat even more appealing,can the smaller spin still be used on the new setup libellule ?

The question is why would we use the smaller spin? When the wind is strong?
It is just the opposite.
The smaller spin was tricky to handle correctly for 2 reasons.
1. it is close to the mast. There is no bowsprit to tighten the luff.
2. the shape of the spin is not flat.
Consequence: we can't sail really downwind but a close reaching. When there is a gust or when the wind blows hard we have high risk to capsize.

The bigger spin is on a bowsprit and everything is stiffer.
Whatever the bigger sail area we sail more downwind and more safely.
The spin lifts the bow and when there is a gust the boat accelerates instead of flying the hull because we sail more down in the wind and the spin cut is
flatter.
So when the wind is strong it is much better to have the bigger spin set than the smaller one.

Ian you must definitely try it.

[davidbrief]

What is most suprising and disappointing is that the Class Association was not consulted and we have not heard of this development from the manufacturer. I am somewhere between Ian and Paul's position. The Hurrricane has adopted a new formula and has convinced people to change because the SX is a definite improvement on the old boat as all the Hurri sailors will agree. IF the kit does make a radical improvement to the boat at low cost then the association should consider sponsoring it and as with the Hurris negotiate as low a price as possible for the conversion. If after a proper evaluation the Class Association considers the X to be a bit of a gommick with no real improvement then we should reject it. Given that Yves considers the Shadow one of his best designs, it is pretty unlikely that he would have launched a new sail configuraton without a lot of thought. Personally, I would like a trial on one before rejecting it out of hand. Has Henry or Rob got a comment?

David

DAvid

[libellule]

One of the few English words the French use is
"Wait and see"
You are right David. If Yves launches this new sail configuration it is because it is a major improvement. You have another boat downwind. For instance up to medium wind you sail downwind as fast as F18! Can you do this with the 10m2? NO.
I had several conversations with Yves last WE about how he didn't design the Shadow like this 10 years ago. He replied the reason was it was 10 years ago and people were not used to spi. A spi on a small cat and on a one crew cat was a challenge.
Now sailors strongly demand more speed and it possible to give it to them:
Better sails (spi a rightly designed for such purpose)
Better ropes
Light bowsprit.
Better sailors.

Now let me remind you of these L.F. Herreshoff words he put down in 1947:

"To me the pleasure of sailing is almost in direct proportion to the speed.
[...]
"This reaction can be seen all over the world in the recent interest in catamarans, proas, etc., which supports my opinion that some sort of sailing machine can be developed which besides being fast, can be safe, strong and seaworthy. I must confess that I get much greater thrill out of sailing fast than winning a race, and care very little for the luffing, backwinding and crowding at the marks."
[...]
[The true sailor] says, "I want to see which boat will sail the fastest." The principal thing he wants to beat is the record around the course or the record between ports, and when he beats some long standing record, he says, "There now, that is sailing."
[...]
I will mention that much I will say has been influenced by some talks I have had with my father (Nat Herreshoff), and I remember quite well a broadside he gave me when he was nearing his ninetieth year. Although he was not much of a talker he could deliver heavy metal when he got in a raking position.
[...]
About 1879, I (Nat Herreshoff) sailed one of my catamarans from the west part of Long Island Sound home to Bristol in one day, a matter of a hundred and twenty-five miles in ten hours. That was pretty good sailing."

[ptanner2611]

Hi Everyone,

This topic has been going on for months and too be honest we as an association have been trying to clarify what is happening directly with Loday White in the UK. To be honest we were told that Yves was looking to develop something differnet for the french market and this may be based on the Shadow platform. All very vague and I suspect the communication within Loday White is not its best.

Rob White is going to be at the Training Day on Friday so we will seek some futher clarification from him and once we have some real facts I promise I will post what ever we find out.

We are an association that is run by its membership and all decisions are made by paid up members of the Shadow Class association. My point is that we are a one design class not a development class. Based on our measurements and class rules the 14 mtr kite is out of class. If this is seen by some as dismissing it out of hand then you have taken the sentiment incorrectly.

I believe one of our strengths is the fact we are a one design class and we should keep an open mind to any potentail developments. If the class is to consider any change now or in the future then we need to do so in a controlled manner with the major of members in agreement. If the membership feels that TRYING the a bigger kite is a positive for the class then we should do so but in a controlled way with the builder.

I can see the benifits of a bigger kite in some situations and negatives in others so keeping an open mind here but I am sure you all agree that there are many other points to consider . The kite I believe comes from the Topaz 16 which has a completley different mast section to the Shadow. The last thing we would want is to have lots of masts breaking.

So lots of questions that can only be dealt with via facts and these I feel can only come via direct discussion via the bulider and designer.

Libellule I appreciate that you have a passion for this development but as an association we need to control any potentail development at the benifit of the majority. Happy for you to post what ever you want on the chat page so do not see my comments as negative. As the Chairman of the assocaition I need to ensure we act for the membership.

So please bear with us so that we can gather the real facts and then present them to the membership.

Paul

GBR018

[davidbrief]

Good response Paul. If we can get clarity, technical comfort and if the majority of the sailors agree, then it may be right to change. Personally don't want to sail in a development class.

[Mike_ward]

Me thinks I will hold off on buying a new kite until I see a clear direction on this one. Paul is right in that any change to the one design has to done in a considered way. Each change will cost all boat owners money if they want to stay competitive. I suspect the new kite package will be at least a grand. What next I wonder, some T foil rudder blades to help cope with the extra sail area down wind or some foiling daggerboards or perhaps replacing all the alloy sections with carbon. There are 101 things present and future that would improve the boat in some way. One of the attractions of the class is the one design and the ability to progress from entry level cats onto an exciting platform with an active circuit. In terms of comparison with F18 I often finish ahead of them on the water and am rarely beaten on handicap. If I want a faster single hander I would consider either A class or F16 both of which will age quickly and reduce in value due to the development aspect of their classes.

I would also be concerned that the bigger curtain on the boat would obscure the view of a certain member whilst on his chaise long.

[Chas Bedford]

Hmm... a couple of thoughts from one who has only just mastered (well, almost) the existing kite.

The larger kite sets outside the forestay. How much complication does that add into a gybe, as the clew will have to pass around the front of the stay and bridle wires?

With the kite setting forward of the forestay but stored on the port side under the tramp (as opposed to a snuffer under the bowsprit), are there going to be handling problems with a port-tack hoist or drop?

[libellule]

Hi everyone,
I will answer your questions, but give me some times.
I will try to do it this night.
There are 2 points in my opinion.
1. Racing
2. Technique
I can already give my opinion to point 1.

1.
In the Froggy Land (France) :-))
we have no Shadow fleet. We sail all individually in clubs.
My friends have F18 or Tornado (I love Tornado, this is definitely a yacht!).
So when we sail for pleasure, mainly) I can't follow them: there are definitely
faster upwind and dramatically downing because with the small spi we can't sail really
down.
When we race, either the F18 sail in their own category (Eurocat) or in C1 with Tornado
Shadow etc..
In C1 we use handicap (ISAF/FFV rating).
Under these previsions, small spi or big spi is not a problem because we use handicap.
Of course with the big spi, the rank is better because the downwind performance of Shadow is much better.
The real question is for you Britons (Rule Britannia...) because you have Shadow fleets in your clubs and you move from clubs to clubs for racing.
I agree that you want to sail "one design" in your sole Shadow races. So since there is not a majority of big spi, it is a wise decision to take that you all race with the same spi.
But when there is a majority of big spi, you will probably change the rule.

2.
Now the technical side of the big spi.
You do not need another boat. You have not to alter the boat excepted:
the hole in the front beam for the pole pin;
the eye on the mast for the spi halyard.
It means that there is no loss on the boat value. This is the most important thing.
Listen: I have put my Shadow for sale because I wanted a new one with the big spi.
As Yves Loday (76) and Jacques Devaux (59) told me I didn't need another boat I decided to keep my boat and set the kit. This is really capital for all of us.

The rest later guys.

[Carl Blenkinsop]

Hi Libellule,
We are all fascinated to hear more from you.
It would be great to hear your answers to Chas’s questions regarding hoisting, dropping and gybing as soon as possible.

We have a training day on Friday at Gurnard followed by an Open Meeting and I guess that most of the talk will be about the larger Spinnaker.
Is there any chance of some more technical photos of how the sail is rigged? The more information that you give us the more chance that we have of having a constructive discussion.

Thanks
Carl

[libellule]

Hi Chas
Hi Carl
Hoisting, gybing, dropping.

Look at my gallery
http://gallery.me.com/ytuset/100099
You will find pictures and drawings.

1. The spi goes into the sock almost completely. Only tack, clew and head are out and do not interfere when sailing. The spi is tight in th sock but it is ok. Absolutely no problem.

2. Hoisting
No problem, everything goes up and probably better because the head is pulled well off the mast and the spi inflates very well. With the small spi I have to be careful when I hoist, sometimes the head goes into the spreader. I have not this problem with the big spi.

3. Gybing
As I sail very often on Tornado I am used to pole and gybing fore the stay.
You have to ease the sheet enough to allow the spi to gyble. I must tell that Yves Loday set up the big spi on my boat just before we started the first race of the Eurocat!!!
You will see on the photos and the drawing that a rope (the red rope) fixed between the jumper stricker and the stay pulls the stay aft to give the spi ample room to gybe.
The stay is really aft, after than you see on the drawing. Yves was very clever with this because on the one hand the stay is aft and on the other hand it makes the boats stiffer without pulling the bows inside (if you see what I mean). Very clever.

4. Dropping
It was always my problem with the small spi.
Every time I tried to drop the spi windward it was a disaster. So I never do this!
Yves does with the big spi. Just ask him. Maybe you could explain me later.
When I drop the head is pulled off the mast well in front of the boat. You do not have the risk to put the head in the spreader. It is very good.
The only problem I had during the races (but do not forget it was my fist sailing of the season and my first with the big spi) is that sometimes the spi seems to be blocked out of the mouth and does not want to go in the sock.
I think it is my fault. Probably I make a mess somewhere because it never occurs to Jacques.

Have a nice sailing.
During your meeting keep cool and have a look at my previous post regarding to the way you sail either in a Shadow fleet or in C1 mixed with other boats.
Enjoy and please forgive my poor English.

Yves Tuset